Marie Therese Kerb Testifies at the Helen Duncan Trial

Helen Duncan

Old Bailey Courtroom

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell my Lord and the members of the jury what happened? Did someone, or did a form, appear?

Marie Kerb: Yes, my daughter.

Defense attorney: Was Mrs. Duncan the medium?

Marie Kerb: Yes, Mrs. Duncan was the medium.

Defense attorney: And your daughter appeared?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Defense attorney: How old was your daughter?

Marie Kerb: Fourteen.

Defense attorney: What was her build like?

Marie Kerb: My daughter was very tall and very, very slim. She had very long ringers. She came through the curtain dashing up to me and just saying, “Mummy, look, I can dance now”. I must say that my daughter had lost the use of her leg in France, and she came through dancing to me, saying, “Mummy, I can dance now.”

Judge: She had lost the use of her leg?

Marie Kerb: Lost her leg.

Defense attorney: Did she show you how she could dance?

Marie Kerb: Yes, she had a long robe.

Defense attorney: Tell us about the dancing?

Marie Kerb: She opened the robe and said, “Come along and just see. Look, Mummy, I can dance now.”

Defense attorney: Can you tell us whether she danced?

Marie Kerb: Yes, she did. She came dancing on to me. She also said to me, “Oh, Mummy, you have had such trouble to get here to-day, but I am so happy you are here”. And I had, because I came from Southampton and I lost the train that I should have taken and I was late at the seance.

Defense attorney: How did you know it was your daughter?

Marie Kerb: I know it was. A mother can tell her daughter any time.

Defense attorney: I should have thought so. Just tell me this. Did she speak to you in the English language?

Marie Kerb: Well, the guide, little Peggy, came and sang a French song that my daughter taught her.

Defense attorney: The guide was Peggy?

Marie Kerb: Peggy. I must also say that Albert, whom I have seen, asked for a torch in the audience.

Defense attorney: You say that Peggy came through the same time as your daughter?

Marie Kerb: No, she did not come through the same time. She came after.

Defense attorney: You said she said something in French?

Marie Kerb: Yes, she sung a little song that my daughter used to sing to me.

Defense attorney: How do you know that it was a song that your daughter had taught her?

Marie Kerb: Because Peggy told me.

Defense attorney: Will you recite it in French?

Marie Kerb: “Au clair de la lune, mon ami Pierrot, Prete-moi ta plume pour ecrire un mot. Ma chandelle est morte, je n’ai plus de feu, Ouvre-moi ta porte pour 1’amour de Dieu.”

Defense attorney: She sang it to you like that?

Marie Kerb: Just like that, but of course singing.

Defense attorney: Did you notice what Peggy looked like on that occasion?

Marie Kerb: Peggy was very small, and she spoke with a very strong Scotch accent, and, when she went back, I said to Peggy, “Peggy, when you get back, would you please give someone a kiss for me?” And Peggy said, “Well, your daughter does not want my love; she wants your love”.

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell me this. How far did your daughter come out of the cabinet?

Marie Kerb: About four or five feet away from the cabinet at least.

Defense attorney: What was the closest that you got to your daughter?

Marie Kerb: Oh, I mean, I was touching her hand. She gave me her hand. I was holding her hand.

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell me what did her hand feel like?

Marie Kerb: Well, it is very difficult to tell.

Defense attorney: From the point of view of size, the size of the fingers?

Marie Kerb: The fingers were very, very long and thin.

Defense attorney: What were your daughter’s fingers like when she was alive?

Marie Kerb: They were the fingers, just like it.

Defense attorney: They were the fingers of your daughter, very long and thin.

Judge: Was it a solid hand?

Marie Kerb: Yes, my Lord.

Defense attorney: You held it?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Defense attorney: Had you yourself had any previous experience?

Marie Kerb: No, it was my first.

Prosecuting Attorney: 1 only want to ask you, when you were saying about your daughter, you made some movement with your hand down your left arm. I thought you wanted to say something.

Marie Kerb: Well, I was struck by this very thin arm, a long arm which my daughter had. She had been in bed for about a year and, of course, she had got very tall and thin, and her arms were terribly thin.

Prosecuting Attorney: Did it appear to be a bare arm, or covered with white stuff?

Marie Kerb: It was just covered with drapery, I should say.

Prosecuting Attorney: White in color?

Marie Kerb: White, yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: When she opened her robe, as you put it, either at or before she started to dance, could you see her foot or feet?

Marie Kerb: Well, I could see her legs.
Prosecuting Attorney: And feet?

Marie Kerb: Well, I cannot say that I have seen her feet, but certainly my daughter came dancing along, and she must have had her feet, but, of course

Prosecuting Attorney: You didn’t actually notice?

Marie Kerb: Well, I was so struck that I

Prosecuting Attorney: It must have been a great moment for you, was it?

Marie Kerb: Oh, marvellous.

Prosecuting Attorney: Have you been to meetings like this before?

Marie Kerb: Never.

Prosecuting Attorney: Have you been since.

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: Several times?

Marie Kerb: Several times.

Prosecuting Attorney: To Mrs. Duncan again?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: Did you pay to go in this first time?

Marie Kerb: The first time I did, yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: How much did you pay?

Marie Kerb: 10s. 6d.

Prosecuting Attorney: When your daughter came rushing out, did you see the curtain move at all?

Marie Kerb: Well, Albert had asked someone in the audience for a torch, and that torch was flashed on to my daughter’s face.

Prosecuting Attorney: Who did that?

Marie Kerb: Albert.

Prosecuting Attorney: Could you see the torch in his hand?

Marie Kerb: I saw the torch; Albert held the torch.

Prosecuting Attorney: Was the hand in white as well?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: Did you see the curtains move?

Marie Kerb: Yes, I saw the curtain open.

Prosecuting Attorney: Would you agree that “Au Clair de la Lune” is a very well known piece of music?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: A lot of us have learned it at school?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Prosecuting Attorney: I should like to ask you this. How do you say Albert spoke? Will you help me about that?

Marie Kerb: Well, Albert said, “There is one here, who is so beautiful, and I cannot keep her back, she is dashing”. My daughter was very excitable; she had a very strong personality.

Prosecuting Attorney: I don’t want to stop you, but I think you mistake my meaning. What was Albert’s voice like?

Marie Kerb: I don’t know how to explain. A very refined voice, I should say.

Prosecuting Attorney: What about Peggy’s voice.

Marie Kerb: Peggy’s was always a very strong Scotch accent.

Prosecuting Attorney: Was there anything more?

Marie Kerb: No.

Prosecuting Attorney: How did the figures disappear?

Marie Kerb: Just through the floor. I saw my daughter’s form just going down and disappearing into the floor.