Witness: Kathleen Evelyn Crosby McNeill

247-249

Defense attorney: What did the gentleman’s voice say?

Kathleen McNeill: He asked if there was a Mrs. McNeill in the sitting; and so, of course, I said I was Mrs. McNeill. He said there was someone coming for me, and he gave the name of Helen. He said it was a sister; he said that she was too weak to manifest but he came with a message from her. He said that her body was still in a room in the city and had not yet been disposed of, and therefore she was too weak to manifest, but he spoke for her. She had only died a few hours before.

Defense attorney: What did you see?

Kathleen McNeill: The spirit of Albert came forward and helped the form of my sister forward. I saw two forms standing together.

Defense attorney: Of Albert and your sister?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: How near were you to your sister?

Kathleen McNeill: Not very near.

Defense attorney: Put it in feet?

Kathleen McNeill: Probably further than this table.

Defense attorney: Would it be three feet?

Kathleen McNeill: More than three feet, probably six feet.

Defense attorney: What sort of light was there?

Kathleen McNeill: It was a dim light.

Defense attorney: Could you see the features?

Kathleen McNeill: No, Albert explained that she was too weak to manifest very clearly.

Defense attorney: Did she say anything?

Kathleen McNeill: No, she did not speak; the message came through the spirit of Albert.

Defense attorney: Did you have another materialization?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: Where was that?

Kathleen McNeill: I went to a second one years later.

Judge: Where was that?

Kathleen McNeill: That was at Glasgow.

Defense attorney: Was the first one at Glasgow too?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, that was at Glasgow too.

Defense Attorney 2: Who came to you then?

Kathleen McNeill: My father.

Defense attorney: How near were you to the form that appeared?

Judge: Was this Mrs. Duncan?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, Mrs. Duncan was the medium.

Defense attorney: Are you sure it was your father?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, I am sure it was my father.

Defense Attorney 2: How near were you to the figure when it came out?

Kathleen McNeill: I was further away then, because I was in the second row; there were two rows of sitters, and I was further back.

Defense attorney: Did the form come straight out of the cabinet?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: How many feet out of the cabinet?

Kathleen McNeill: I think probably about six feet.

Defense attorney: How did you know it was your father; was there anything particular about his face?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, I know it was my father because in life he had lost an eye, and he appeared to me as he was in life.

Defense attorney: Did you see that?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Judge: Did you speak to him?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: What did he say to you?

Kathleen McNeill: He said he was very pleased with what I had done.

Defense Attorney 2: What had you done which you think he referred to?

Kathleen McNeill: I think he referred to the fact that I had gone to stay with my mother.

Defense attorney: There was a further materialization to you, was there not?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: What was that?

Kathleen McNeill: The form of a sister.

Judge: Was that all he said?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, he spoke with difficulty; he might have said a few words of love, but nothing of an evidential character.

Defense Attorney 2: What was the last materialization?

Kathleen McNeill: There was another materialization for somebody else, not for me at all; but I recognized the lady.

Defense attorney: Who was it?

Kathleen McNeill: It was a Mrs. Stevens; I recognized her. She walked right into the room. She came over by the door.

Defense attorney: Did she speak?

Kathleen McNeill: Not to me, but to her daughter.

Defense attorney: Did you recognize the daughter?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, I recognized her hair very distinctly, because she had just had it waved, and I had seen her on her death bed. She appeared again as she had been in life.

Defense attorney: Have any other relatives of yours appeared to you?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes. A sister appeared, carrying a baby. She gave her name as my sister, which was Annie, and I believed it to be my sister.

Defense attorney: Was this at the second meeting?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes. Cross-examined by the prosecuting attorney.

Defense attorney: Did you pay to go to these meetings?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, a few shillings.

Defense attorney: How long have you been interested in this sort of thing?

Kathleen McNeill: This took place in 1931.

Defense attorney: Had you, before 1931, been interested in Spiritualism?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, in other branches.

Defense attorney: Was your husband interested in it?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: Were you interested before your husband, or the other way round, or together?

Kathleen McNeill: No, I was interested in it first.

Defense attorney: Did you persuade him?

Kathleen McNeill: No, nobody could.

Defense attorney: But he did become interested, did he?

Kathleen McNeill: He is quite interested.

Defense attorney: How long had your sister been dead in 1 93 1 ?

Kathleen McNeill: She had only been dead a few hours; it was not known in the papers. Nobody knew she was dead.

Defense attorney: Had she been ill for some time before?

Kathleen McNeill: No, nobody expected her to die; she had an operation.

Defense attorney: Was it a serious operation?

Kathleen McNeill: It must have been.

Defense attorney: Had your father been dead some time when you were in Glasgow?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes, he must have been dead for perhaps a year.

Defense attorney: What was his occupation in life?

Kathleen McNeill: He was interested in many th’ngs; I really believe he was an upholsterer by trade.

Defense attorney: Did you see the backs of any of these mediums?

Kathleen McNeill: I saw the back of the lady who came out to see her daughter.

Defense attorney: What did it look like?

Kathleen McNeill: It just looked like her form.

Defense attorney: White?

Kathleen McNeill: Whitish, yes.

Defense attorney: Did you see the back of any of the others?

Kathleen McNeill: No; my father retired from me backwards, facing me.

Defense attorney: Towards the cabinet?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes.

Defense attorney: Did you see the curtains move?

Kathleen McNeill: No, I did not see the curtains; I was looking at my father.

Defense attorney: Was Mrs. Stevens a Scottish lady?

Kathleen McNeill: Yes. I knew her.

Defense attorney: Where did she live?

Kathleen McNeill: In Glasgow.

Defense attorney: What do you say Albert’s voice was like?

Kathleen McNeill: I thought it was a very cultured voice; quite unlike a Scottish voice.

Defense attorney: That is rather hard on your own land, is it not?

Kathleen McNeill: I mean it was not a broad Scotch accent.

Judge: Inverness?

Kathleen McNeill: No; it was really a very cultured voice, a beautiful speaker.
Prosecuting Attorney: Can you help me any more?

Kathleen McNeill: It might have been Australian.

Defense attorney: That struck you, did it?

Kathleen McNeill: I am not very sure.

Defense attorney: It certainly wasn’t Cockney, was it?

Kathleen McNeill: No, it wasn’t Cockney.

Witness: Mary Annie Wheatcroft

253 – 254

Defense attorney: What happened to give you full value?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: My husband manifested.

Defense attorney: Your husband appeared?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Yes, he fulfilled a promise he made some years before he died.

Defense attorney: Did Mrs. Duncan know, or could she have known, of that promise that he fulfilled to you?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: No.

Defense attorney: Did he appear on this occasion?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Yes, in the afternoon.

Defense attorney: How close to you did he come?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: I should think about three feet; I am not very good at measuring distances, but I was sitting next to Mr. Homer just by the cabinet.

Defense attorney: Are you quite certain that it was your husband?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Oh, yes. Definitely.

Defense attorney: Do you live in London?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Yes.

Defense attorney: Did you know Mrs. Duncan before?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: No. ‘

Defense attorney: Did Mrs. Duncan know that you were going?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: No.

Defense attorney: As far as you know, had either Mrs. Duncan or Mr. Homer any means of knowing what your husband looked like?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: No, That I am sure of.

Defense attorney: Why do you tell my Lord and the jury that your husband came into that room in Portsmouth?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Albert said, “There is a gentleman here that wants a lady near the door”. I was not sitting near the door, but I looked at somebody who sat near the door, and I said, “I think that is you”. But, when my husband heard my voice, he opened the curtains and he came out and pointed to me and said, “I want you, Annie; I am Alf.”

Defense attorney: Is your name Annie?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: That is what my husband always calls me.

Defense attorney: Did he then come towards you?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: No, he just stood outside the curtains. I spoiled it, I think, by being so excited and told somebody else it was her that was wanted, because as soon as I said to him, “Oh, Alf, how lovely of you to come like this”, he seemed to fade and he went.

Defense attorney: It was only a very short recognition, was it?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Yes, but it was perfectly certain.

Defense attorney: Are you judging it from appearances or anything else?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: Just the way he would speak to me ; it was just his manner, and it was him. I recognized his voice, and nobody else would call me Annie, and nobody but me would call him Alf, because his name is Absalom, and his friends called him Tab, but I did not like it so I always called him Alf.

Defense attorney: Have you any doubt it was your husband?

Mary Annie Wheatcroft: None whatever.

Witness: Frederick Arthur Branch

254-255

Defense attorney: We have had all that, Mr. Branch. Tell me of anything in regard to your- self. Did someone appear for you personally?

Frederick Branch: Yes, my grand- mother.

Defense attorney: Did she come close to you?

Frederick Branch: I went over to her, but she came half-way.

Defense attorney: About how close did you get to her?

Frederick Branch: To within about a foot of her.

Defense attorney: What did you see?

Frederick Branch: The height of her was about to my shoulder; she was very slenderly built, and I saw hundreds of wrinkles upon her face.

Defense attorney: Would she answer the description of a little old lady?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Defense attorney: Did she speak?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Defense attorney: Did you notice the accent she spoke in?

Frederick Branch: Yes, sir, a Suffolk accent, very similar to mine, but a soft voice.

Defense attorney: Yours is not a Suffolk accent, is it?

Frederick Branch: No.

Defense attorney: Yours is an Essex accent?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Defense attorney: You spoke to her with an Essex accent, and she answered you with a Suffolk accent?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Defense attorney: Could you imitate the Suffolk accent?

Judge: It is not much good, because the jury may not recognize it.

Defense attorney: Did you recognize the Suffolk accent?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Defense attorney: And she spoke to you with a Suffolk accent?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Defense attorney: Was it a stout figure, or a slender figure?

Frederick Branch: A slender figure.

Defense attorney: Could you indicate the height with your hand?

Frederick Branch: Up to my shoulder, sir.

Defense attorney: Apart from the fact that she had wrinkles which does not amount to much you could not confirm that it was your grandmother, could you?

Frederick Branch: No, but that was confirmed to me by my mother a fortnight later when I went back.

Defense attorney: You did not know your grandmother yourself, did you?

Frederick Branch: No, sir.

Defense attorney: But you did notice that she had wrinkles?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Judge: You are satisfied it was your grandmother?

Frederick Branch: Yes, my Lord.

Prosecuting attorney: What did your grannie say to you?

Frederick Branch: My grandmother said, “Hullo, Fred; don’t worry. I am watching over you”.

Prosecuting attorney: No more?

Frederick Branch: No more.

Prosecuting attorney: Did you say anything?

Frederick Branch: Yes, I called her out of the cabinet.

Prosecuting attorney: Did you see the curtains move?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Was she all in white?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Did she go back into the cabinet?

Frederick Branch: No, sir.

Prosecuting attorney: What happened?

Frederick Branch: She disappeared through the floor.

Judge: Was it something white?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: How far was she out of the cabinet?

Frederick Branch: About two feet.

Prosecuting attorney: Did you hear Albert speak?

Frederick Branch: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: What sort of accent did he have?

Frederick Branch: I should say it would be the Oxford accent; a very cultured voice.

Witness: Alfred Dodd

257 – 260

Alfred Dodd: The voice of Albert said, “There is a big man coming out for you”.

Judge: This is the same seance, is it?

Alfred Dodd: Yes. “There is a big man coming out for you”. A form came out between the curtains.

Defense attorney: For whom?

Alfred Dodd: I was going to tell you of my grandfather.

Defense attorney: Albert said, “There is a big man coming out”. For whom?

Alfred Dodd: For me.

Defense attorney: How did he know you?

Alfred Dodd: Well, he called put first. I ought to have explained, he called out first. He said, “This is for the man with glasses in the second row”. He said, “Please speak”, and he said, “Yes, that is the voice. There is a big man coming out for you”. The curtains went on one side, and out there came the living form of my grandfather. I knew it was him, because he was a very big man.

Defense attorney: How big?

Alfred Dodd: A very tall man, about 6ft. 1. at least, very corpulent. He looked round the room very quizzically until his eyes caught mine. He then strode across the room from the seance cabinet to where I was. He pushed the heads of the two strangers that were before me on one side like that, and he put out his hand and he grasped mine. He said as he grasped it, “I am very pleased to see you, Alfred, here in my native city”. I was very surprised at seeing him, and I looked at him most closely, and I said to him, “Why, you look just the same”. He had on, his smoking-cap that he used to wear. He was dressed in a dark suit. He had on the donkey fringe I knew so well, having been brought up with him since five years of age. His face was brown and bronzed, just in the same way; the same look in his eye; the same expression and tones that I knew so well. As a matter of fact, he was born in Manchester, and I was born in Manchester.

Judge: Never mind. Did he say anything more to you?

Alfred Dodd: Oh, yes, he did.

Defense attorney: Tell us that?

Alfred Dodd: He next said, “I am sorry you are having such a rough time.” I was, because I was losing a lot of money on property at that time, and he seemed to know all about it. He spoke just as if he was one of the family. He touched on something very private and personal, which I could not make mention of in this court very well, but he then continued and said, “Ban is here” Ban, that is the pet name for the old nurse that I used to have as a child, which I had known as I grew up. “Ban is here”. I said, “I am very glad. I hope you are getting on very well.” He said, “Keep your pecker up, old boy” that was one of his characteristic expressions “Never say die while there is a shot in the locker”. He was holding my hand all the time. He held it with so firm a grip that my hand ached for hours afterwards. There was thrown over him, as it were, a net of I should think half-inch mesh; there seemed to be thrown over him a net, because, as I held his hand, I pulled the net in my hand quite distinctly. He stepped back like that and he put his hand on my friend’s shoulder, who was sitting at the front. He put his hand on and clapped him on the shoulder and said, “Stand up, Tom”, just in the same com- manding way he used to speak. “Stand up, Tom”, and my friend looked up at him and was afraid of a voice which was inside the cabinet. It was Albert’s voice which said to him, “Stand up; stand up”. So Tom Wallace stood up and, when he stood up, my grandfather being a much bigger man than him in every way, he said, “Look into my face, and look into my eyes”. He said, “Will you know me again, Mr. Wallace?”. Wallace said, “Yes”. “Very good. You ask Albert to-morrow to show you my portrait, which is hanging on the wall in his dining-room, and you will see it is the same man as is speaking to you, now”. He turned round and walked back to the cabinet, and he lifted up his leg and he slapped his thigh three times, three loud resounding smacks, and then he went ‘right to the curtain and he lifted himself to his full height. He smote himself on the breast three times, so that everybody could hear. He said, “It is solid, Alfred; it is solid”, and he went away inside. That was the first personal experience I had.

Defense attorney: Tell me this. Was your grandfather, as far as you know, or anything about your grandfather known to Mrs. Duncan?

Alfred Dodd: Oh, certainly not. My grandfather died in 1906.

Defense attorney: And the private affairs of which you have spoken, as far as you know, were they known to Mrs. Duncan?

Alfred Dodd: Oh, no. They could not possibly have been known. He said before he went, I ought to add to my evidence, one more remarkable thing. He said, “You are on the right track, Alfred. Go on with your work,” he said, “I mean the sonnets”, and there was not a living person in Manchester who knew I was interested in Shakespeare’s sonnets. I was editing an edition of Shakespeare’s sonnets.

Defense attorney: We must not go into a controversy about Shakespeare’s sonnets.

Alfred Dodd: It is a great controversy.

Defense attorney: At any rate, was it something you were interested in?

Alfred Dodd: Yes.

Defense attorney: I think one controversy at a time is enough. Have you had any other experience personal to yourself? .

Alfred Dodd: Yes, I can give you another one.

Defense attorney: Did anything else happen at that particular seance?

Alfred Dodd: Yes.

Defense attorney: Personal to yourself?

Alfred Dodd: It was personal in a sense.

Defense attorney: Just tell us?

Alfred Dodd: That particular seance began in this way. After the voice had come and several forms had come out to other people, he called out and said, “There is a lady here, an old lady who wants a gentleman in the front row, and she is calling out the name of Jim.” Now I saw a little old body come out, very small in a dark garment, white of face, grey hair, and I recognized her by her photograph. That is why it is personal to me. I recognized her by her photograph. She came out without the slightest hesitation, and came straight from the cabinet, through the curtains right to where Mr. James Waller was sitting in the front row, and as she seized his hand and as he took hers, I heard the two. I heard the two voices. He said, “Oh, mother, mother”, and she said to him, “My boy, my boy”. They had a private conversation. I took the place of the sister who ought to have been there, and that was referred to in the course of the conversation. She was very, very sorry a sister, a girl named Lily, was poorly. Then he said, “My brother Tom is here, you know”. She said, “Yes, I am going to him”, and she disengaged her hand quite literally, and went across an intervening space of two or three persons id went to shake hands with Tom. As she finished shaking hands with m, she said, “Now, be good to your father”, and she went back. As soon as ever she had gone back into the cabinet, Albert’s voice called out once more, and he said that lady’s name. We will call her grandmother Mary. He said, “She has brought with her a little girl, and her name is little Mary” we will call her. He said, “Now little Mary has come to look for her daddy and her mummy; they are here”. As she spoke, I saw a white formless mist which seemed to come through the curtain; it came through the curtain in such a way that it remained about three yards from the sitters, and this formless mist began to condense. It took shape, and there I saw, to my astonishment, a little girl with a rope in her hand’ and she was skipping. I can see the twist of her hands even now, it was so real. It went on for six or seven skips, and then this little girl whom I and she appeared almost to clamber on her knee, and sat between her knees, in some way. Then the voice of Albert called out, “Come back; come back”, but the little girl said, “I want to show them my curls. I want to show them my curls”. He said, “You must come at once”. She said, “No, I will not”. There was quite a little altercation, and the two voices were crossing each other from outside and inside. Then he said, “All right. Show the curls”, and she showed her head. I saw them; I saw those golden curls. I was sitting right behind. She bent her head forward, and that was that. Then she went back.

Defense attorney: Now, on that particular occasion I would just like to ask you this. Did the voices as far as you could judge, corroborate the appearance?

Alfred Dodd: Oh, certainly, certainly. There was absolutely no question of there being two personalities there.

Defense attorney: Would you give us another occasion, Mr. Dodd?

Alfred Dodd: Yes, in 1936. This was such a remarkable seance to me. I had to wait for some time until I had a chance. I did not book Mrs. Duncan; I got an agent to book her, for a private sitting with Mrs. Duncan. I was particularly interested in obtaining certain definite answers to certain questions relating to a historical character. Well, the seance took place. There were ten chosen sitters by Mrs. Arguis, at Bootle. We were all trained observers; we were all professional or businessmen, who said the seance was a disappointing one, for at the last minute Mrs. Duncan said, in a word, that she would not sit unless her two friends, Mr. and Mrs. Aldous, with whom she had come, were to sit at the seance also. That seemed to upset the conditions, and the manifestations which took place were not satisfactory, and we were all disappointed; but at the last, just when we thought that all was over, the curtains opened once more, and I saw before me the living form the living form! of a young lady aged twenty-one. Her name was Helen to me, and she was the first sweetheart that I had ever had, and therefore I knew her. I knew her absolutely. She stood there and she put up her hand to me, and waved in exactly the same way that she waved when I took her to her last social. She stood on the stairs, half-way up, and waved me away. She stood there dressed in a white flowing robe, and over that white flowing robe was a fine curtain of net. I was so astonished that I stood up in my seat, which I ought not to have done, and I called out to my wife at the other end of the room, and I said to her, “Why, it’s Helen; it’s Helen”. The girl did not come to me direct, she came right round the room from left to right, and she stood before me, a living, palpitating woman. The same hair that I knew so well, dark and ruddy; the same eyes, hazel; they shone with animation; her face, the same ivory pallor on her cheeks. I said as I looked at her, “Well, I am glad to see you. I am glad. I was only talking about you last night”. Then I heard her speak, and she spoke in the same soft Scotch accent that I knew so well.

Defense attorney: What dialect?

Alfred Dodd: She came from (unintelligible) but it was a cultured Scotch, not a harsh Glasgow Scotch, nothing like it not harsh at all; a soft cultured voice, mixed, of course, with her training in England educa- tionally, and she was so real as she stood there that night. Instinctively I put out my arms to her, thinking that she would be a natural solid human being, but she started back and said, “Don’t touch me”. She dissolved into nothing. She never went back into the cabinet. Now that is the truth. She passed away in 1897, forty-seven years ago.

Defense attorney: Is there any other experience, personal to yourself, Mr. Dodd, that you remember, that you wish to tell my ‘Lord and the jury?

Alfred Dodd: I had an experience in 1940 with Mrs. Duncan. That was at a private seance.

Judge: Where was it?

Alfred Dodd: That was in Liverpool, 94 Sandforth Road, Liverpool, at Mr. R. H. Irwin’s house. That seance was fairly satisfactory, but the lighting arrangements which are red in all these cases, were poor. Some said they could see the forms and some said they could not. The seance ran right through and, although some very remarkable things happened, I was not personally interested in those; they were not personal to me. But at the end nothing had come for me, and I was very much surprised, because at a previous seance I had been told by Helen that she would give me a notable test of her identity. Now Albert’s voice was heard just at the finish, and he called out for a gentleman with glasses on the right, “Please speak”. I said, “For me?” He said, “Yes”. He said, “There is a lady here who wishes to materialize in an old-world dress”. I said, “Oh, she is trying to materialize without a head”. He said, “Wait a minute, we have not managed it. Wait a minute”. We waited two or three minutes it seemed to me an interminable time but in the end he said, “I am very sorry; we cannot possibly manage it, but she told me to tell you that, in her previous life, her name was Mary. She speaks with a Scotch accent tinged with French.” She was a lady, and he said, “This lady lost her head”. Now the singular thing is this, that Helen had given me her identity, who she was three hundred years ago, and those exactly described the characteristics of a lady who went to the block in that era, who spoke Scotch with a French accent.

Defense attorney: May I ask you this as a psychic investigator? Can you tell us what is, or what would you say is, the point and value of a materialization seance if they have any particular point or value?

Alfred Dodd: Well, I should say that physical phenomena specially of the materialization kind is really a guarantee of the proof of Spiritualism, just as physical science is the foundation of our educational knowledge.

Defense attorney: I did not want that quite. Does it go further than evidence of survival?

Alfred Dodd: Oh, yes, it proves survival.

Defense attorney: Is that the main point?

Alfred Dodd: That is the main point, and then, moreover, you feel you are in touch with them.

Defense attorney: Having observed at many of these seances, is the evidence usually adroitly given or otherwise the evidence of survival? That is what I want to know.

Alfred Dodd: You cannot obtain satisfactory evidence of survival by, say, a casual seance; it requires long investigation, and sometimes the evidence comes casually, and sometimes it comes quite directly. It varies. You have got to group these various types and forms together and form one’s conclusion. It makes one into a thinker.

Defense attorney: Is the main point of the evidence one of survival?

Alfred Dodd: Yes, that is the main point.

Witness: John Winning

267-269

Defense attorney: Which you could check up on?

John Winning: Oh, yes, on numerous occasions. My own mother has appeared and materialized and shown herself very clearly with certain idiosyncrasies in her features, and she was able on one occasion to stand quite close beside my sister, who had a similar little slant of the nose, and I was able to see the difference. I was able to note the slant of my mother’s nose we all knew about it and also compared it with my sister’s; it was on the opposite side.

Defense attorney: About how many times has your mother materialized?

John Winning: I should say at least a dozen times out of those forty.

Defense attorney: Have you had any doubt of any kind?

John Winning: None whatever, because the conversation was always about home matters and personal matters.

Defense attorney: Matters known to Mrs. Duncan?

John Winning: Not known to Mrs. Duncan, only to myself.

Defense attorney: Just tell me this, quite apart from the suggestion which is becoming ludicrous, of Mrs. Duncan doing all this: would it have been possible by any stretch of the imagination, granting the greatest possible skill and wickedness, for Mrs. Duncan to have impersonated your mother?

John Winning: Quite impossible. She is not like my mother in any way. My mother was slim, and Mrs. Duncan certainly is not.

Defense attorney: You have been good enough to tell us about your mother. Any other relation?

John Winning: Yes, my brother, who passed over into the spirit side of life many years ago, conies easily as a young man. His movements are quick and active; his speech is quick; he talks about home things and shows himself very clearly. His movements in the room are entirely different, they are different entirely, from Mrs. Duncan. His movements are quick and active; Mrs. Duncan could not move about in that way. And his speech is different.

Defense attorney: How far have either of these two figures come from the cabinet?

John Winning: They have come right out of the cabinet. My mother has taken me by the hand, and my brother has come out of the cabinet on various occasions and spoken to me.

Defense attorney: How many times did you say your brother had materialized?

John Winning: He comes almost at every seance I have. He either comes out of the cabinet, or simply I hear his voice saying, “I am here”.

Defense attorney: How many times have you seen your brother materialize?

John Winning: Out of forty times he has probably come twenty times; at least he has come oftener than my mother.

Defense attorney: What dialect does your brother speak in?

John Winning: He does not speak any. He was born at Lanark like myself. He probably speaks like myself. I hope I am not too difficult to understand.

Defense attorney: Any other association or any other person well known to you?

John Winning: Yes, my grandmother has come out repeatedly. She was an old lady; she was eighty-four when she passed over. Several of my uncles have come to me.

Defense attorney: Just take one at a time. Is there any similarity in the voice of your grand- mother and your brother, or are they quite distinctive?

John Winning: Quite distinctive.

Defense attorney: Go on. Any other close relationship? Anybody you can identify?

John Winning: My aunt Elaine, my uncle William. I could go on naming them.

Defense attorney: Go on. I cannot afford to miss any out.

John Winning: My uncle Tom was the last one that came at the end of November and spoke to me for some time.

Defense attorney: An uncle. Was there anything striking in his build?

John Winning: Yes, my uncle Willie, who came some time ago, had a little beard and moustache, which he was able to show quite clearly to me, and his build is different from Mrs. Duncan; his features are different.

Defense attorney: I think I can omit the possibility of Mrs. Duncan for the moment. Was your uncle’s voice a typical voice?

John Winning: I should say that it was different. I would not say it was the same as what we heard in life, because there are difficulties there; but it was not like Mrs. Duncan’s, and he also was able to talk about personal home things that Mrs. Duncan knows nothing about.

Defense attorney: Could you check up on the things?

John Winning: Yes.

Defense attorney: Did you check up on the things?

John Winning: I did.

Defense attorney: How many relations you seem to have seen so many we cannot go into them all have you seen?

John Winning: Probably close on a dozen. More.

Defense attorney: Have you any doubt at all about the identity of any of them?

John Winning: None whatever, by the conversation and the appearance.

Defense attorney: I think I might ask you this. It is rather a leading question. Could the greatest living actor, given the greatest possible facilities with all possible apparatus have simulated, in your view, what you have seen?

John Winning: I do not think it would be possible.

Defense attorney: Given the greatest possible skill?

John Winning: They could not simulate the information that was imparted to me by these people.

Defense attorney: You have dealt with your relations. Now your friends. Any particular friend? Does anybody come to your mind?

John Winning: Yes, on the 30th November there was a schoolmaster whom I knew, who came and announced himself not to me, but I knew him. He came out of the cabinet and said he had come to speak to his two boys, at that particular seance.

Defense attorney: Did you recognize him?

John Winning: I recognized him.

Defense attorney: You must not leave that out.

John Winning: And the two boys, one aged ten and the other aged fourteen. They recognized the schoolmaster.

Defense attorney: He was recognized by yourself and the two boys present at that time?

John Winning: And two boys.

Defense attorney: Anything else of a striking nature that you would like to tell my Lord and the jury? I think that is enough, Dr. Winning. Would you tell me this? May I have those Exhibits, 1 to 4, the photographs. Have you any experience in regard to psychic photography?

John Winning: Yes, I have been doing quite a lot of psychic photography.

Defense attorney: Is it a rather difficult subject?

John Winning: It is difficult; it is very difficult.

Defense attorney: I do not want to go into it, if I can help it. Would you just look at those photographs and tell me if either you or anybody else could say with certainty whether those are genuine psychic photographs or otherwise?

Judge: I will put them in order for you, so that I can follow and the jury follow, if they want to. There are four. No. 1 is on the top.

Defense attorney: Can you say by looking at them?

John Winning: I think I should say this, that I do not think it is possible for anyone to determine whether a psychic photograph is genuine or not, unless they know the circumstances under which the photograph has been taken. I think that is the only way it can be done.

Judge: That is a very fair answer.

Defense attorney: You do not think it is possible?

John Winning: I would not be able to unless I knew the circumstances.

Defense attorney: Looking at them alone, would you be either able to condemn or approve?

John Winning: I could do neither one nor the other.

Witness: Herbert John Steabben

270-272

Defense attorney: Do you remember at a seance just before the war broke out, someone appearing to you personally?

Herbert Steabben: Yes.

Defense attorney: Who was that?

Herbert Steabben: My mother.

Defense attorney: How far were you from her then?

Herbert Steabben: I touched her.

Defense attorney: Just explain to the jury?

Herbert Steabben: She came clearly out from the cabinet and stood about three to four feet clear of the curtains, a full materialization. I noticed the grey hair. I noticed the difference in the eyes. The eyes are grey, whereas Mrs. Duncan’s are brown. She is about half or one-third the size, and she had the peculiar little mannerisms, that as my mother I naturally recognized.

Defense attorney: Did you hear her voice?

Herbert Steabben: Yes.

Defense attorney: What did she say to you?

Herbert Steabben: She called me by a name other than I have given here as my own name to-day.

Defense attorney: Your name is Herbert John?

Herbert Steabben: My name is Herbert John. She called me Charles.

Defense attorney: Did Mrs. Duncan know you had a nickname of Charles?

Herbert Steabben: No, I think that is not known to more than three or four people, even to-day.

Defense attorney: You recognized the voice?

Herbert Steabben: Yes.

Defense attorney: Did you see your mother’s features?

Herbert Steabben: Certainly. I saw the color of her eyes.

Defense attorney: Was there any peculiarity about her face when you were talking to her?

Herbert Steabben: She had a little mannerism that, when she was under emotion, one would see before she broke down the lips tremble, like a mother would; and it was very characteristic when she was very stirred. She was stirred naturally then, and I had to comfort her instead of she comforting me.

Defense attorney: What happened to your mother’s figure in front of you?

Herbert Steabben: It disappeared down through the floor.

Defense attorney: It did not return?

Herbert Steabben: It did not return into the cabinet.

Defense attorney: Do you remember another seance?

Judge: It was only an ectoplasm?

Herbert Steabben: Yes.

Defense Attorney 2: The ectoplasm disappeared?

Herbert Steabben: The figure in the ectoplasm disappeared into the floor as if it melted.

Defense Attorney 2: Any other manifestations?

Herbert Steabben: On the very first time when I sat with Mrs. Duncan, when she was entirely unknown to me, I saw the figure of a little child. .

Judge: Can you give me the approximate date?

Herbert Steabben: Ten years ago.

Defense attorney: That will do.

Herbert Steabben: This little child of fourteen had long black hair. She had skinny arms, and very shortish, and she was very quick. She had had her leg amputated before she passed into spirit. She came out to show that she had the use of that leg. She was well able to dance, which was a thing she wanted to do when she was in life, but was unable. It was tragic. She also gave what to me was a wonderful piece of evidence. She said to me, “I have your telegram with me.” This telegram was one that I had sent to her mother when she was lying ill in hospital. She had so attracted the attention of the nurses there, because no amount of morphia could stop the pain that she was suffering, and, when she had this telegram, she did not have a single moment’s more pain until the time she passed into spirit.

Defense Attorney 2: Was a relative of hers there?

Herbert Steabben: Not on the first occasion. She asked me that. She knew that on the first occasion, and she asked me to give her love to mummy and daddy, which I did. And next time I invited them to come and they saw her for themselves.

Judge: What is the connection between the child and the telegram?

Herbert Steabben: This telegram she had had buried with her in the coffin, and she said she had it; she had still got it.

Defense attorney: Was it that the child had suffered and you sent a telegram to the child?

Herbert Steabben: Yes, to give her my love and my help.

Judge: Yes, I see.

Defense Attorney 2: Did you hear the child on the subsequent occasion when she appeared, talking to her father and mother?

Herbert Steabben: Yes.

Defense attorney: What language did they speak in?

Herbert Steabben: French and English.

Judge: And the child had got her leg restored?

Herbert Steabben: Yes, she danced on that leg, whereas before when she passed she was a cripple and unable to.

Defense attorney: We have been told the spirits usually manifest themselves in the same form in which they passed over, as it is said. This would be an exception?

Herbert Steabben: No, that is not right. There are differences. Sometimes they manifest themselves to show themselves to be recognized as the person they are with a scar. Sometimes they will come and say, “Look, the scar has gone, because I am now a perfect spirit”.

Defense attorney: It is not correct to say that?

Herbert Steabben: Not always. They get healed, they become rejuvenated. I think the words of the Bible are that we become perfected. We come to ourselves again in the spirit of God.

Defense Attorney 2: Did you arrange the seance?

Herbert Steabben: I did.

Defense attorney: What fee did Mrs. Duncan charge?

Herbert Steabben: 8. Latterly she has refused it.

Defense attorney: But she charged you 8?

Herbert Steabben: 8, that time.

Defense attorney: How many sitters did you have?

Herbert Steabben: Fourteen.

Defense attorney: Fourteen other men?

Herbert Steabben: They varied. On an odd occasion I might have one or two more, and there were a number where I had twelve.

Defense attorney: What do you charge each sitter?

Herbert Steabben: 12s. 6d.

Defense attorney: Fourteen sitters at 12s. 6d. What would you have after paying Mrs. Duncan?

Herbert Steabben: Fifteen shillings A little over that; the difference is twenty- eight shillings.

Defense attorney: Did it cover your expenses?

Judge: Are you an official of some society?

Herbert Steabben: I am independent, working as a psychic healer and medium lecturer.

Defense attorney: Are you dependent upon that for your living?

Herbert Steabben: Yes, entirely.

Defense attorney: Do you call yourself by any name of institution?

Herbert Steabben: Well, no. I did form the Pathfinders’ Society, but I did not want to undertake the leader- ship, and I asked Mrs. Blackwell if she would become the president of that.

Defense attorney: You just practise in a private capacity?

Herbert Steabben: Certainly.

Witness: Marie Therese Kerb

273-276

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell my Lord and the members of the jury what happened? Did someone, or did a form, appear?

Marie Kerb: Yes, my daughter.

Defense attorney: Was Mrs. Duncan the medium?

Marie Kerb: Yes, Mrs. Duncan was the medium.

Defense attorney: And your daughter appeared?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Defense attorney: How old was your daughter?

Marie Kerb: Fourteen.

Defense attorney: What was her build like?

Marie Kerb: My daughter was very tall and very, very slim. She had very long ringers. She came through the curtain dashing up to me and just saying, “Mummy, look, I can dance now”. I must say that my daughter had lost the use of her leg in France, and she came through dancing to me, saying, “Mummy, I can dance now.”

Judge: She had lost the use of her leg?

Marie Kerb: Lost her leg.

Defense attorney: Did she show you how she could dance?

Marie Kerb: Yes, she had a long robe.

Defense attorney: Tell us about the dancing?

Marie Kerb: She opened the robe and said, “Come along and just see. Look, Mummy, I can dance now.”

Defense attorney: Can you tell us whether she danced?

Marie Kerb: Yes, she did. She came dancing on to me. She also said to me, “Oh, Mummy, you have had such trouble to get here to-day, but I am so happy you are here”. And I had, because I came from Southampton and I lost the train that I should have taken and I was late at the seance.

Defense attorney: How did you know it was your daughter?

Marie Kerb: I know it was. A mother can tell her daughter any time.

Defense attorney: I should have thought so. Just tell me this. Did she speak to you in the English language?

Marie Kerb: Well, the guide, little Peggy, came and sang a French song that my daughter taught her.

Defense attorney: The guide was Peggy?

Marie Kerb: Peggy. I must also say that Albert, whom I have seen, asked for a torch in the audience.

Defense attorney: You say that Peggy came through the same time as your daughter?

Marie Kerb: No, she did not come through the same time. She came after.

Defense attorney: You said she said something in French?

Marie Kerb: Yes, she sung a little song that my daughter used to sing to me.

Defense attorney: How do you know that it was a song that your daughter had taught her?

Marie Kerb: Because Peggy told me.

Defense attorney: Will you recite it in French?

Marie Kerb: “Au clair de la lune, mon ami Pierrot, Prete-moi ta plume pour ecrire un mot. Ma chandelle est morte, je n’ai plus de feu, Ouvre-moi ta porte pour 1’amour de Dieu.”

Defense attorney: She sang it to you like that?

Marie Kerb: Just like that, but of course singing.

Defense attorney: Did you notice what Peggy looked like on that occasion?

Marie Kerb: Peggy was very small, and she spoke with a very strong Scotch accent, and, when she went back, I said to Peggy, “Peggy, when you get back, would you please give someone a kiss for me?” And Peggy said, “Well, your daughter does not want my love; she wants your love”.

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell me this. How far did your daughter come out of the cabinet?

Marie Kerb: About four or five feet away from the cabinet at least.

Defense attorney: What was the closest that you got to your daughter?

Marie Kerb: Oh, I mean, I was touching her hand. She gave me her hand. I was holding her hand.

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell me what did her hand feel like?

Marie Kerb: Well, it is very difficult to tell.

Defense attorney: From the point of view of size, the size of the fingers?

Marie Kerb: The fingers were very, very long and thin.

Defense attorney: What were your daughter’s fingers like when she was alive?

Marie Kerb: They were the fingers, just like it.

Defense attorney: They were the fingers of your daughter, very long and thin.

Judge: Was it a solid hand?

Marie Kerb: Yes, my Lord.

Defense attorney: You held it?

Marie Kerb: Yes.

Defense attorney: Had you yourself had any previous experience?

Marie Kerb: No, it was my first.
Prosecuting Attorney: 1 only want to ask you, when you were saying about your daughter, you made some movement with your hand down your left arm. I thought you wanted to say something.

Marie Kerb: Well, I was struck by this very thin arm, a long arm which my daughter had. She had been in bed for about a year and, of course, she had got very tall and thin, and her arms were terribly thin.
Prosecuting Attorney: Did it appear to be a bare arm, or covered with white stuff?

Marie Kerb: It was just covered with drapery, I should say.
Prosecuting Attorney: White in color?

Marie Kerb: White, yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: When she opened her robe, as you put it, either at or before she started to dance, could you see her foot or feet?

Marie Kerb: Well, I could see her legs.
Prosecuting Attorney: And feet?

Marie Kerb: Well, I cannot say that I have seen her feet, but certainly my daughter came dancing along, and she must have had her feet, but, of course
Prosecuting Attorney: You didn’t actually notice?

Marie Kerb: Well, I was so struck that I
Prosecuting Attorney: It must have been a great moment for you, was it?

Marie Kerb: Oh, marvellous.
Prosecuting Attorney: Have you been to meetings like this before?

Marie Kerb: Never.
Prosecuting Attorney: Have you been since.

Marie Kerb: Yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: Several times?

Marie Kerb: Several times.
Prosecuting Attorney: To Mrs. Duncan again?

Marie Kerb: Yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: Did you pay to go in this first time?

Marie Kerb: The first time I did, yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: How much did you pay?

Marie Kerb: 10s. 6d.
Prosecuting Attorney: When your daughter came rushing out, did you see the curtain move at all?

Marie Kerb: Well, Albert had asked someone in the audience for a torch, and that torch was flashed on to my daughter’s face.
Prosecuting Attorney: Who did that?

Marie Kerb: Albert.
Prosecuting Attorney: Could you see the torch in his hand?

Marie Kerb: I saw the torch; Albert held the torch.
Prosecuting Attorney: Was the hand in white as well?

Marie Kerb: Yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: Did you see the curtains move?

Marie Kerb: Yes, I saw the curtain open.
Prosecuting Attorney: Would you agree that “Au Clair de la Lune” is a very well known piece of music?

Marie Kerb: Yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: A lot of us have learned it at school?

Marie Kerb: Yes.
Prosecuting Attorney: I should like to ask you this. How do you say Albert spoke? Will you help me about that?

Marie Kerb: Well, Albert said, “There is one here, who is so beautiful, and I cannot keep her back, she is dashing”. My daughter was very excitable; she had a very strong personality.
Prosecuting Attorney: I don’t want to stop you, but I think you mistake my meaning. What was Albert’s voice like?

Marie Kerb: I don’t know how to explain. A very refined voice, I should say.
Prosecuting Attorney: What about Peggy’s voice.

Marie Kerb: Peggy’s was always a very strong Scotch accent.
Prosecuting Attorney: Was there anything more?

Marie Kerb: No.
Prosecuting Attorney: How did the figures disappear?

Marie Kerb: Just through the floor. I saw my daughter’s form just going down and disappearing into the floor.

Witness: Albert Ormesher

276-280

Judge: You say “in the usual way”. Had you been accustomed to this sort of thing before?

Albert Ormesher: Not materialization before, but I have been a Spiritualist for forty-five years, and I have seen all phenomena. Albert said, “I am bringing through to you, Mr. Ormesher, your mother”. He said, “She tells me that you were only a boy of eight when she left you”. I said, “That is so”. Then he said, “After she comes, your sister is coming. I believe she only died about four years ago”. .That is correct. My mother came through and she spoke to me.

Defense Attorney 2: How near were you to your mother?

Albert Ormesher: Oh, about four feet. I was in the first row.

Defense attorney: How light was it?

Albert Ormesher: There was a good red light. I wrote an account of it to The Two Worlds at the time, but I want to cut it short. You could see the pictures on the walls. We conversed one with another.

Defense attorney: What about your mother’s features?

Albert Ormesher: Oh, correct, what I remember. I was only eight, you see. She told me of things I did when I was a boy.

Defense attorney: Did you recognize the voice?

Albert Ormesher: Oh, I did, yes, and at the same time I should mention this because it is in the article I wrote for The Two Worlds. I mentioned the fact that, at the time I saw my mother, and my sister who came afterwards, I saw Mrs. Duncan on the chair. I was just at an angle from the chair and the opening of the curtain. I could see my mother, of course, standing close to me, and I saw Mrs. Duncan clearly at the same time on the chair. She was in trance; she was unconscious.

Defense attorney: How far was the figure of your mother from the figure of Mrs. Duncan?

Albert Ormesher: The figure of my mother from me was four feet about. I was close to the curtain.

Defense attorney: Did you see anything between your mother and Mrs. Duncan, anything at all?

Albert Ormesher: No, nothing.

Defense attorney: Did you have a clear vision?

Albert Ormesher: Of the two.

Defense attorney: Of the space between the two?

Albert Ormesher: Oh, yes, distinctly.

Defense attorney: Now come to the next one.

Albert Ormesher: My mother had a conversation with me before she left me. My sister came through. She died of gangrene in the hand. She had a big hole through the palm. She said, “My hand is better now”. She said, “I am so thankful to come back to you here”. She shook hands with me. She said, “Feel how solid I am”. I did, and I felt her warm hand; it was quite warm. I had quite a long conversation with her and, before she went, she said, “I will try to write you a little note before the seance.” I put on the table a writing-pad and blacklead pencil, so that, if any message came through, she could give it me. She turned round to this table, on which was the writing pad. She held it up. She said, “It is very difficult to see”. Whether it was the want of light- She wrote it and she gave it to me; she handed it to me.

Defense attorney: Your sister did?

Albert Ormesher: It said, “My dear brother, I am very happy. Emily”. It was only short. I compared the handwriting. My sister was an authoress, so I had plenty of evidence of her writing. I brought another message I have had since I left that book but I have had another since then at another seance on November 30th, 1933, which I have got here with me. The handwriting, you say, was your sister’s?

Albert Ormesher: Oh, quite. The formation of the letters were identical.

Defense attorney: Did she sign it?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, she signed it “Emily”; that’s all.

Defense attorney: Come to the next seance, when was that?

Albert Ormesher: 4th July, 1933. That was at the same house, Warren’s, 21 Rutland Avenue. My sister came again, and she continued the conversation where she had left off at the previous seance. She said, “I am going now. I cannot stay any longer”. She went down in the usual way. She came again and she continued the con- versation where she had left off. I asked her a question, whom she had met on the other side. She said, “Of course, father is here”, and she said, “And of course, you have seen mother just before I came”. I said, “Have you seen my brother Freddy?” My brother Freddy died seven years before I was born, of course. She said, “Yes, he has gone forward into the higher spheres”. She said, “He comes down to us occasionally”, but she said, “We are all very happy here; very happy indeed”. I saw Mrs. Duncan on that occasion still in her chair.

Defense attorney: Separately apart from the figure?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, that was on 4th July. Shall I go on? Then you come to November 30th?

Albert Ormesher: 30th November, 1933. My sister came again and my brother. I had another conversation with my sister, and she told me something I was doing about two days before; where I had been, and where I was going to, and I did not know at that time that I was going to this place, but I did go. Then my brother-in-law came through. How did you identify your brother-in-law?

Albert Ormesher: By the way he passed out. He passed out suddenly in the night, and he came back the same way exactly, saying the same words, “I am so ill”. Those were the same words that he uttered when he passed out in Stockport. That was when I spoke with him and his sister.

Defense attorney: What about his voice? Was it his voice or someone else’s?

Albert Ormesher: It was his voice. He was a big man.

Defense attorney: Did you see his features?

Albert Ormesher: Quite distinctly.

Defense attorney: Was there anything distinctive about the features at all?

Albert Ormesher: It was him in his way. He was a very big bluff chap, and spoke very loud.

Defense attorney: The next one was somewhere else? A: 24th April, 1 935, at the Spiritualist Church in Wallasey. My sister came through, and Mr. Irvine came through. This is very evidential. I can tell you this story very quickly. Albert said, “I am bringing someone through to you, Mr. Ormesher, who sat at the same desk with you, and passed away very suddenly”. I said to my daughter, “Mr. Irvine”. He came through the curtain, and he said, “Well, I am pleased to see you, Mr. Ormesher, I am pleased to see you”. I said, “Well, I am pleased to see you”. He said, “I remember coming to your house and listening to the gramophone, and it was twelve o’clock when I left, and there was deep snow” it had been snowing “and I had to walk home; the buses had stopped”. I said, “Look here, Iran”- that was his name “Were you at the Church, at the funeral?” He said, “I sat in the pulpit just in front of you.” He had only just been ordained by the Bishop of Chester three days before that. His son took the service at the Church and the graveside. He said, “I stood by the side of my son in the pulpit”, and he said, “You went along to the ceremony. You were in Mr. Luscomb’s car”. I said, “Yes, I did”. Everybody heard this. He said, “You stood round my grave”. He said, “I was not there. I was by my wife.” He said, “When the service concluded” Now, this is very evidential, and I want you to listen, everybody!

Judge: Don’t make comments. Don’t make a speech. We are not at a lecture.

Albert Ormesher: He said, “When the service was over and you were leaving the grave, two ladies came along, who were not of the party, and one looked at the other and said, ‘They have been putting someone away. I will see who it is’. You stepped back from the party, and this lady threw a little bunch of violets down on my grave”. My Lord, that is exactly what happened. While I stood back like that, two ladies came along and said, “They are putting someone away”. She said, “They will only die; I will put them on the grave”.

Defense attorney: How long before 1934 did he die?

Albert Ormesher: He died about two months before that, I should think. And he told me about a bunch of flowers I had put on his grave. He said, “I thank you, Mr. Ormesher, for the white flowers that I was looking at upon my grave”. And that was so.

Defense Attorney 2: Your wife also appeared to you?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, but that was at the last seance.

Defense attorney: Just describe that. Tell my Lord and the jury.

Albert Ormesher: The last seance that was at Preston on 23rd March, 1940, and my daughter Thelma came. Albert came through. He said, “I am bringing through your daughter”. He said, “You lost your daughter very suddenly”. He said, “You called upon me on 2nd January, 1 940”. I said, “I did”. He said, “Your daughter is here and is coming through, but I am afraid she is very excited and will not be able to talk. Anyway, we will see”. She came through and stood there, childlike. By the way, I should explain, my Lord, that my daughter went out one morning on 2nd January; the snow was on the ground, and she wandered down to the river Trent. She did not come in at dinner time or tea time, and I went to the Chief Constable of Kendal. He said, “How was your daughter dressed?” I told him. He said, “I am sorry; your daughter has been drowned”.

Defense attorney: Tell us what you saw at the seance?

Albert Ormesher: Yes. She came forward, and I said, “Why did you go to the river, Thelma?” because I had forbidden her to go to the river. She said, “Sorry, Dad”. She said she was very, very happy. She said, “I am with Mother now. I am very happy indeed”.

Defense attorney: How near were you to your daughter?

Albert Ormesher: I was in the front row. Three or four feet.

Defense attorney: Did you see the features?

Albert Ormesher: She was ten years and four months when she was drowned.

Defense attorney: What about your daughter’s voice? Did you recognize the voice?

Albert Ormesher: Oh, yes.

Defense attorney: In the case of your wife, how near were you to your wife?

Albert Ormesher: The same distance. She came through next.

Defense attorney: Did you see the features clearly?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, I shook hands with her, and the voice and everything was quite clear. You could see the color of the hair and everything, as distinctly as we can each other here.

Defense attorney: Any other identification?

Albert Ormesher: After my wife left? She spoke to my daughter. She said to Stella, “I am so glad you have come. I am so glad Dad has brought you”. Then she said,, “I must go now. There are a lot waiting on the other side to come through. I must not take up very much time. I am glad to see you both here”. She said, “Good-bye”. She stepped back again and shouted to my daughter, “Take care of Dad”, meaning me. And of course she went.

Judge: She did not seem to know that your daughter was also there?

Albert Ormesher: No, she suddenly saw her. She saw me first, and then she took a glance along those who were there, saw my daughter and said, “Stella”.

Defense attorney: She did not seem to know that Stella was with her in the spirit world?

Albert Ormesher: No, Stella is my eldest daughter. Thelma, my youngest daughter, was the one that was drowned. That is my eldest daughter.

Defense attorney: I wanted to follow. It was your living daughter that she recognized?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, that is so, my Lord. She told her to take care of you?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, “Take care of Dad”. Then the next one to come through was my wife’s step-father. He was a very tall man, a very big man indeed.

Defense Attorney 2: How tall?

Albert Ormesher: I think he was 6 feet 2. He thought a lot of my daughters.

Defense attorney: How far did he come out of the cabinet?

Albert Ormesher: He came right out of the cabinet.

Defense attorney: How near to you?

Albert Ormesher: About two feet. He spoke to me. He didn’t say very much.

Defense attorney: Did you recognize his voice at all?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, I recognized it. There is no doubt about it. And all the other people I have seen at a sitting I have had between these dates.

Judge: Your father-in-law?

Albert Ormesher: No, my wife’s step-father. His name was Campion.

Defense Attorney 2: I suppose they all spoke in the English language?

Albert Ormesher: Yes, but I have heard foreign languages spoken, but it has not been to me.

Defense attorney: You have?

Albert Ormesher: Yes.

Defense attorney: What languages have you heard spoken?

Albert Ormesher: I have heard Welsh spoken to a lady friend of mine, who sat at the back, and I have heard French spoken. That was on 10th March, 1937, and at that time, I should say, at this seance, a cousin of mine who died in Australia came through. My daughter Stella was with me on the occasion she came through. She died in Ipswich, Queensland.

Defense attorney: What other languages besides French and Welsh?

Albert Ormesher: At the first seance, the Morse code. A message was coming to a friend of mine, Captain Smith of Birkenhead, in the Morse code.

Defense attorney: How did you hear it?

Albert Ormesher: Someone came through whistling it was at the first seance ‘For he’s a Jolly Good Fellow’. Smith sat next to me. He said, “I think that is for me”, and then came a message I don’t know Morse a tapping came and he was taking it in.

Defense attorney: You know the Morse code?

Albert Ormesher: No, I don’t, but Smith told me after- wards. He said, “That’s my name. That mentions the dinner we were at”. There was a big dinner in London the Prince of Wales was there, and Smith was there, being one of the heads of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. Smith was with him. He died about four months later As we were going home together, he told me all about this friend who came through. At that time the curtains blew out. Of course, I have told this in the account that I wrote for The Two Worlds.

Defense attorney: We only want simply what other language besides Welsh, French and the Morse code?

Albert Ormesher: That is all that I have heard.

Defense attorney: Any dialects?

Albert Ormesher: No, only Lancashire, which my sister spoke. I come from Lancashire, really, you know; but I am very satisfied that I have seen those people that I have told you about, and if I were to describe every- thing, I am afraid I should take up too much time.

Witness: Sir James William Harris

284-286

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to deal with those first of all, materializations where you personally identified?

James Harris: Yes. Well, one that occurs to me as specially interesting was the materialization of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Defense attorney: Did you know Sir Arthur Conan Doyle personally?

James Harris: Yes, he was a personal friend of mine. I have a great many letters from him. He was kind enough to write an introduction to a book of mine on the subject and, always when he was in Edinburgh, he communicated with me, and I used to meet him at dinner and otherwise, and we discussed various things. Shortly after his death I was asked to go to a private house in Edinburgh, again someone who was a friend of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. There were a very small number of us four, I think and in the course of Mrs. Duncan’s sitting, a figure materialized. It was not stated who he was. After looking at it a little, I clearly recognized Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Judge: Was he introduced by Albert?

James Harris: No, there was no intro- duction. It was left to me to recognize him, and I was certainly not expecting him. It came as a great surprise to me.

Defense attorney: Mrs. Duncan was the medium, was she?

James Harris: Yes.

Defense attorney: Engaged by your friend? ,

James Harris: Yes, Mrs. Roughhead. Sir Arthur spoke as usual. It took the usual sequence. It was held in this lady’s house. One of the sitters was a W.V.S. of Edinburgh. I cannot recall the fourth at the moment. Mr. Roughhead was an especially close friend of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle; they exchanged visits and stayed at one another’s houses.

Defense attorney: Mrs. Roughhead?

James Harris: Mrs. Roughhead arranged that sitting.

Judge: We have heard about her in this case.

Defense attorney: Will you deal with the identification?

James Harris: Yes. Well, of course, the figure was rather whitish; it had not the natural color that I have occasionally seen at Mrs. Duncan’s sittings; it Was a little what you would call ghostly; but I did easily recognize the rounded features of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and the voice spoke with the truest similarity to the voice of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Judge: Do you remember what he said?

James Harris: I was so much taken aback. It was a question of answering my questions at first. I contented myself with enquiring whether he found the conditions shortly after his death in accordance with his expectations generally. He said, “Yes.” My recollection is just generally, with some little variations, it was exactly what he had expected. The figure remained materialized only for a very few seconds. It sank, in the last answer he gave, into the ground at the foot of the cabinet. It came back in two or three seconds. I continued the conversation. I think I spoke about current affairs. He said some- thing; it was not anything very notable. I only had a few seconds. He remained there visible for a matter of something like ten seconds.

Defense attorney: Has Sir Arthur Conan Doyle ever materialized to you personally on any other occasions.

James Harris: No, that is the only occasion.

Defense attorney: Any other identifications that you can give?

James Harris: Yes, slightly more recent. I think about three years I was at a sitting, more or less a test sitting, in the Edinburgh Psychic College with Mrs. Duncan as the medium, and quite a number of forms materialized. At one point a young woman who had been a nurse materialized. I was not again expecting anything of the kind.

Defense attorney: Was she well known to you personally?

James Harris: Very closely known and related to my wife. She spoke, and while I did not recognize the features in this instance, I did recognize the curious kind of habit of movement; and the things she said I thought were characteristic, and she pointed to mie with a kind of gesture she used to have. And, on the whole, from various things I was fairly clearly convinced that this was the nurse in question.

Defense attorney: Anybody else personally known to you when they were alive?

James Harris: Well, I have not too good a memory; I am just giving some instances. I cannot put my hand on the notes. I usually make notes of these kind of sittings. I remember one or two rather curious things relating to a sitting with Mrs. Duncan. On one occasion I was told by Albert that here was someone who had been accustomed to meet me in a place where there were only men, and I at once thought of the Scottish Arts Club; and then I recall while he was speaking, a friend of mine, an elderly man, an American sculptor, and well known in this country, too. I remember he had just passed away. Albert said he did not think he would materialise, but he tried to speak. He did say two or three words, but the curious thing was that the words were preceded by a dry little cough, and I never knew this man to start to speak to me on any occasion without a little dry cough. It was the one characteristic about him, and I found it was reproduced on this occasion.

Defense attorney: Possibly I may just ask you this, very quickly and as a matter of interest. Can you tell us what Albert’s name was when he was on earth? Do you know?

James Harris: I do not know. I just know him as Albert.

Defense attorney: There is a picture or sculpture of Albert?

James Harris: Yes, we have a sculpture of him in the Edinburgh Psychic College. It was given by an Aberdeen sculptor who had attended sittings, and he made this sculpture which was afterwards shown in the Royal Scottish Exhibition, the premier exhibition in Scotland; and it is now in the Psychic College.

Defense attorney: Just under the name of Albert?

James Harris: Yes.

Witness: Joseph Wood Milne Smith

291-292

Defense attorney: What sort of frame of mind were you in when you first attended?

Joseph Smith: Well, I was rather curious. I had not experienced any sittings before, and I went with my wife, who was previously interested and had been interested prior to that, out of curiosity and in order to be satisfied as to the genuine- ness of psychic phenomena.

Defense attorney: With quite an open mind?

Joseph Smith: A perfectly open mind, a sympathetic mind.

Defense attorney: At the first sitting did you have a materialization personal to yourself?

Joseph Smith: Yes.

Defense attorney: Could you put a date to that? When do you say it was? About six years ago?

Joseph Smith: Yes.

Judge: That is near enough.

Joseph Smith: Somewhere about six years ago.

Defense attorney: What relative came to you?

Joseph Smith: My mother came.

Defense attorney: Can you say what sort of lighting there was and how far away you were?

Joseph Smith: That was the first sitting I had been to and the first materialization I had seen. I had rather a difficulty in distinguishing the features at that particular time. The light was not too good, according to my view, and I could not see my mother’s features very clearly; but I was able to identify her by her voice.

Defense attorney: By the voice did you recognize her?

Joseph Smith: By her voice, and the words she used. I may say that of course my fiancée, as she then was, definitely identified her features. She seemed to have the faculty of being able to identify features better than I could.

Defense attorney: Then you lost your wife?

Joseph Smith: That is so.

Defense attorney: Afterwards, in 1940, you attended a sitting?

Joseph Smith: I have attended three since then.

Defense attorney: What happened at those sittings?

Joseph Smith: At the first sitting she came through.

Defense attorney: Your wife?

Joseph Smith: My wife came through. She materialized. She spoke to me. She called my name, and by her calling my name I could have identified her without reference to anything else. Without reference to having seen her.

Judge: How long after her death was this?

Joseph Smith: Probably about a year after her death six months or a year after her death. She died in 1940.

Defense attorney: You recognized the features?

Joseph Smith: I recognized the features.

Defense attorney: Was there anything particular about them?

Joseph Smith: Her form of speech. It was the way she pronounced my name Joe. She had a peculiarity of pronouncing my name, in this sense, one would almost think she put a “d” before the “J”.

Judge: What does the Psychic College consist of?

Joseph Smith: It is a whole house and everything is devoted to the pursuit of psychic phenomena.

Defense attorney: Is it run by a local Edinburgh Society?

Joseph Smith: Yes, it is.

Defense attorney: A society of Spiritualists or people interested in it?

Joseph Smith: Yes, they hold lectures, demonstrations and seances of all different kinds.

Defense attorney: Your wife has appeared to you on more than one occasion?

Joseph Smith: Yes, I remember another occasion when I was at the same college, Mrs. Duncan being the medium. Two friends of mine, husband and wife, wished to go and I took them there. My wife was known to my male friend on this side, but she was quite unknown to his wife.

Defense attorney: Where were you sitting on that occasion?

Joseph Smith: On that occasion I was sitting right at the side of the cabinet. As if the curtain were here, I was sitting here.

Defense attorney: The first seat on the left facing the cabinet? A, Yes.

Defense attorney: How near would that be to where your wife appeared?

Joseph Smith: A foot.

Defense attorney: How far did she come out when she came out?

Joseph Smith: She came out two feet.

Defense attorney: How near to her were you when she came?

Joseph Smith: A foot from me.

Defense attorney: Did you see your wife’s features then?

Joseph Smith: Yes, perfectly clearly.

Defense attorney: And the voice?

Joseph Smith: The voice was hers all right. I remember distinctly. It emphasised to me the genuineness of matters. She said, “You are here all together?” I said, “Yes”, referring to my male friend as well and his wife as Ruby. She said, “So I see”. She nodded to them, and immediately said to Ruby, “I like your costume”. Now it so happened, unknown to me, that Ruby, my friend’s wife, had a new costume made for her, and she had had it for the first time that day.

Defense attorney: When she went back to the curtain, did she turn round or walk backwards?

Joseph Smith: No, I could better describe it by saying that she went backwards towards the curtain and disappeared, as she went, into the floor.

Defense attorney: Have you any other interesting identifications?

Joseph Smith: Yes, I also saw at a sitting an artist friend of mine who had died. I have some of his pictures in my office. He also materialized in the presence of his superior, the Director of Education for the county. Both the Director and I were at that sitting. We both identified him.

Defense attorney: How near were you when you identified?

Joseph Smith: I should say three feet. In this case he spoke. I recognized his voice definitely and his appearance.

Defense attorney: Did you touch anything that materialized to you?

Joseph Smith: No, I have never on any occasion touched them.

Defense attorney: Have you heard any dialects or languages?

Joseph Smith: Dialects, yes. I have heard several forms who have come from my part of the country, Aberdeen, talking in Doric.

Defense attorney: Aberdeen?

Joseph Smith: Yes.

Defense attorney: Any other besides Aberdeen?

Joseph Smith: No.

Witness: Lily Kurd

293-294

Defense attorney: Have you yourself been fortunate enough to have any materializations that you personally identified?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: Who were they?

Lily Kurd: My mother.

Defense attorney: About when was it that your mother came?

Lily Kurd: I cannot tell you the exact date, but it was soon after she passed away four years ago.

Defense attorney: Did your mother come far out of the cabinet?

Lily Kurd: She came quite out and was recognized by other people in the room who only knew her by sight.

Defense attorney: Never mind the other people. Did you recognize her?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: Do you mean you think you recognized her?

Lily Kurd: I am sure.

Defense attorney: How close did she get to you?

Lily Kurd: She came quite close.

Defense attorney: Did she speak to you?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: What about the voice?

Lily Kurd: Exactly the same as in life.

Defense attorney: Your mother’s voice?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: Your mother’s appearance and your mother’s voice?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: Anyone else beside your mother?

Lily Kurd: My aunt by marriage.

Defense attorney: Did you know your aunt by marriage well?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: About when was it that she came?

Lily Kurd: She came at the same seance I have been speaking of.

Defense attorney: How close to you did your aunt come?

Lily Kurd: She came to the chair where I was sitting and pulled me up to speak to me privately.

Defense attorney: Did she speak to you privately?

Lily Kurd: Yes.

Defense attorney: Was it in regard to any matter known to Mrs. Duncan?

Lily Kurd: No.

Defense attorney: You still have not told us how you know it was your aunt?

Lily Kurd: Well, I can tell you that quite easily. My aunt took her own life, and she was telling me of the sufferings she had gone through that act.

Defense attorney: What about her appearance?

Lily Kurd: It was exactly the same as I had known her.

Defense attorney: And her voice?

Lily Kurd: Just the same.

Defense attorney: The voice of?

Lily Kurd: My aunt.

Defense attorney: Anybody else?

Lily Kurd: There were friends but no more relatives.

Defense attorney: Never mind about friends unless you knew them?

Lily Kurd: I knew them well.

Defense attorney: Anybody you knew well?

Lily Kurd: Yes, a schoolfriend whom I knew as Amy Hurd, no relative.

Defense attorney: About when was it she came through?

Lily Kurd: She also came at the same seance.

Defense attorney: How close to you did she come?

Lily Kurd: Not quite so close as my mother, but close enough to see and recognize.

Defense attorney: What about the voice?

Lily Kurd: The voice was the same as I have always known. We went to school together and we have known one another all our lives.

Defense attorney: Anybody else?

Lily Kurd: A little girl, a niece of that same lady.

Defense attorney: About how tall was the little girl?

Lily Kurd: About three feet.

Defense attorney: Are you sure it was not Mrs. Duncan in disguise?

Lily Kurd: Quite sure.

Defense attorney: How close to you did she come?

Lily Kurd: She came up quite close because she came to ask me for her Aunt Ethel, who was not present.

Defense attorney: So far as you know, did Mrs. Duncan know she had an aunt Ethel?

Lily Kurd: No. And another thing, Mrs. Duncan could be seen at the same time as the child, and was seen by every person in the room.

Defense attorney: What about the child’s voice?

Lily Kurd: She sang us a song, ‘Jesus Wants me for a Sunbeam’, in a small childish voice, as she had heard it at school.

Defense attorney: Had you heard that child sing that before?

Lily Kurd: No.

Defense attorney: Had you heard her singing before?

Lily Kurd: No, but I knew the child.

Defense attorney: But you hadn’t heard her singing?

Lily Kurd: I had not heard her sing.

Defense attorney: Anybody else that you know?

Lily Kurd: Nobody that I knew personally.

Defense attorney: Anybody you knew by sight? I think you have told us enough, thank you very much. By the bye, there is one thing. Was there an incident between you and your aunt?

Lily Kurd: Well, she kissed me before going back.

Defense attorney: She kissed you? You were close enough for that?

Lily Kurd: Yes, she drew me quite close to her.

Witness: Margaret Lyons

295-296

Defense attorney: How many seances of Mrs. Duncan’s have you attended?

Margaret Lyons: Four.

Defense attorney: Where did you attend them, in Glasgow or in Edinburgh?

Margaret Lyons: One in Holland Street, Glasgow, some years ago, the other three in the Psychic College, Edinburgh, 33 Ryde Row, Edinburgh.

Defense attorney: Which is the one where your father appeared?

Margaret Lyons: Hercot Road Psychic College, the last sitting I had.

Judge: When was that?

Margaret Lyons: About 1940.

Defense Attorney 2: When he appeared, exactly what was said, do you remember?

Margaret Lyons: Yes. I recognized him instantly by his face; his nose was broken and sort of went over a bit. When I heard Albert ask me to come forward, he said, “You are not afraid to come forward and see who this is?” When I saw him, I said, “Daddy”. I was only thirteen when my daddy died, and I recognized him instantly. He said, “Marget”, that was the name he called me Marget, not Margaret and I stood sort of speechless. I could hardly believe the tremendous revelation. All he said to me was, “Yes, Marget, I am proud of you. You have made a far better teacher than ever I could make you”. By those words he meant the fact that I wanted to be a school teacher, and him dying when I was only thirteen, the eldest of five of a family, I could not be a teacher, because my mother could not afford it, and it meant a good deal to me, those words. Nobody could fake those words; they were known only to me. He said, “I am proud of you, Marget. You are a better teacher than ever I could make you.”

Defense attorney: Did you touch him?

Margaret Lyons: I was asked by Albert, would I like to shake my father’s hand; and I did. The hand was raised like that, and I took his hand. Then back to my mind came the small finger, with no bones; it was contracted. When I shook hands I said, “Your wee finger. It is really you”. That is all.

Defense attorney: How tall was your father?

Margaret Lyons: I don’t think he was quite 5 feet 5. He was a small man.

Defense attorney: What was he in life?

Margaret Lyons: A riveter, a shipyard worker.

Defense attorney: That means hard work with his hands?

Margaret Lyons: Yes, he had very hard hands. That is one thing again that I noticed, his sort of horny hard hand, my daddy’s hand, and my daddy’s voice. No one could say my name as he did; I could never mistake that. He was of Irish parents. He had rather a way of saying it, which could not be said by anybody else.

Defense attorney: Did you touch any other part of him?

Margaret Lyons: Oh yes; his face. I put my hand on his face; the guide invited me. He said, “Would you like to touch him?” I did that; I touched his face and felt the sort of bristly hair on his face as if unshaven. My daddy had a very short illness. He came home on the Wednesday from his work and died on the Monday morning. I remember that morning he died. His face had a sort of growth of hair which was pretty heavy, and that was one of the facts again that was noticeable when he appeared.

Defense attorney: Did you know anybody in the room at the time?

Margaret Lyons: Just the people who were sitting in a circle. About ten of us were sitting there, and I was at the end seat.

Defense attorney: Would anybody else there know about you?

Margaret Lyons: No, the sitting was quite a casual sitting, not arranged by me; but I was doing work at the Psychic College, healing, and I had an hour or two to spare, and I was invited by one of the ladies of the College would I like to sit, it would be company rather than sit downstairs alone. I just went up, not sort of pre- arranged or anything. No, I did not know the sitters.

Witness: John William Gerrard

296-298

Defense attorney: Have you any materializations of a particular interest to yourself?

John Gerrard: My two boys and my daughter.

Defense attorney: How long ago would that be?

John Gerrard: Well, I suppose they have come these last twelve or fourteen years, two and three and four times a year.

Judge: When was your last sitting? Was it last year, 1943?

John Gerrard: No, it would be probably about twelve months last October, or about that time.

Defense attorney: About eighteen months ago. Where was it?

John Gerrard: In my own house.

Defense attorney: With Mrs. Duncan?

John Gerrard: Yes.

Defense attorney: Let us deal with your two sons first of all. Take them one at a time.

John Gerrard: Yes.

Defense attorney: How old was this son who came through?

John Gerrard: The one who passed into the spirit world at nine would be about thirty, my youngest boy.

Defense attorney: I don’t want to deal with him because you would not be able to identify him then by sight?

John Gerrard: Oh, couldn’t I? I beg your pardon. I am his father, and his mother was there.

Defense attorney: Tell us about it?

John Gerrard: He told me to help his mother with certain things in the house.

Judge: Was that the son who died at nine?

John Gerrard: Yes.

Defense attorney: How do you know it was your son? That is all I want for the moment.

John Gerrard: The same eyes, the same nose, the same hair and the same ears as in his photograph.

Defense attorney: And the voice?

John Gerrard: And the voice; undoubtedly the voice.

Judge: You recognized him? Was he a lad of nine as he appeared to you?

John Gerrard: In the first instance. He has grown.

Defense attorney: The first time you saw him? He died when he was nine years old; did he then appear to you to be the same age?

John Gerrard: The same age.

Defense attorney: Just as he was?

John Gerrard: Just as he was.

Defense attorney: He died how many years ago?

John Gerrard: Eighteen. I was abroad at the time.

Judge: The end of the last War.

Defense attorney: Did he appear to you as he was just before he died?

John Gerrard: Yes.

Defense attorney: Have you any doubt about it at all?

John Gerrard: None whatever.

Defense attorney: The other boy you told us of, how old was he?

John Gerrard: Nineteen when he crossed the border.

Defense attorney: That particular boy when he came through, how did you know that he was your son?

John Gerrard: By the same characteristics.

Judge: You recognized him?

John Gerrard: Yes.

Defense attorney: Have you any doubt about it?

John Gerrard: Not the slightest.

Defense attorney: Anybody else besides your two boys?

John Gerrard: My sister-in-law.

Defense attorney: Any other child of yours?

John Gerrard: A daughter came.

Defense attorney: You have not told us about her. How old was she when she died?

John Gerrard: At O What appearance had she got when she came through?

John Gerrard: The first time she came, Jack brought her in his hands right out under the light and said, “Mother, she was very tiny when she came to me, but I am going to rear her until you come to meet her”. Those are the exact words, as far as my memory serves me.

Judge: Which of the boys?

John Gerrard: The eldest.

Defense attorney: Have you seen the child again?

John Gerrard: Yes.

Defense attorney: Is she altering, growing?

John Gerrard: As tall as her mother.

Defense attorney: How did she come the last time you saw her? With Jack or without Jack ?

John Gerrard: Jack brought her, and she put out her two hands to her mother.

Defense attorney: When he brought her, was she in his arms or able to walk?

John Gerrard: Just walk; she was tall enough to pick up her mother in two hands like that, and turn her face, face to face, and said, “What a likeness!”

Defense attorney: Was there a striking likeness?

John Gerrard: There was a striking likeness.

Witness: Helaine Fry

298-300

Defense attorney: Have you yourself been fortunate enough to have any personal identifications?

Helaine Fry: Yes, quite a lot.

Defense attorney: Who were they?

Helaine Fry: My sister, my nephew, my uncle, my father-in-law, my mother-in-law and my son.

Defense attorney: Would you be good enough to tell us first of all about your son? How do you know that he was your son, Mrs. Fry?

Helaine Fry: It is very difficult to explain. My son was never born in the flesh. Albert said it was my son, but he has never had completely his physical body on earth. He said he would try to bring him to me. He tried, and my son came, and Albert said he could not give him a face. He came and opened his arms to me but he had no face.

Defense attorney: Anyone else?

Helaine Fry: My people in-law, my father and mother-in-law.

Defense attorney: Did you know them fairly well?

Helaine Fry: I knew them extremely well.

Defense attorney: You say he came. Who are you speaking about?

Helaine Fry: My father-in-law.

Defense attorney: How do you know it was your father-in-law?

Helaine Fry: He was so much like himself, and looking rather frail, like he was in the last two years in his life; and all the things he said.

Defense attorney: What about his voice?

Helaine Fry: Exactly like his voice, and like himself.

Defense attorney: What was the name of your father-in-law?

Helaine Fry: Edward Alexander Fry.

Defense attorney: Do you mean you think it was he?

Helaine Fry: I have not the least doubt.

Defense attorney: How close to you did he come?

Helaine Fry: I was very close to the curtain, but he recognized his son at the end of the room and all my children, and he made a remark he would have made as when he was in the flesh, about the children: “How much they have grown!” He had the habit of measuring their heights every time he saw them, and keeping a record of it.

Defense attorney: Anyone else?

Helaine Fry: My nephew, who was killed in the Maginot Line.

Defense attorney: What was his name?

Helaine Fry: John Valet.

Defense attorney: How do you know it was your nephew?

Helaine Fry: By his size, his stature, his personality. He was a very tall boy. He showed his dark hair.

Defense attorney: Have you any doubt of any kind it was John Valet?

Helaine Fry: Not the least doubt.

Defense attorney: Did he speak to you?

Helaine Fry: No.

Defense attorney: Did any of these people speak to you?

Helaine Fry: Yes, a French girl who came once.

Defense attorney: Was she a girl you knew?

Helaine Fry: I could not recognize her, because Albert said she was a schoolfriend. I could not recognize my schoolfriend, but she talked French perfectly.

Defense attorney: Do you know Mrs. Duncan fairly well?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Defense attorney: As far as you know, does Mrs. Duncan speak French?

Helaine Fry: I do not think so.

Defense attorney: Any other case of identification of particular interest to you, Mrs. Fry? t

Helaine Fry: I have heard Swedish being spoken to a Swedish man, at the Spiritualists’ International Congress at Glasgow, at which I was an interpreter. . Did you check up the Swedish?

Helaine Fry: I do not understand Swedish. The man spoken to was a delegate, a Swedish doctor. He told me he con- versed with his mother. Q, You checked up on that?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Defense attorney: Any other case of somebody you knew when they were here? You have told us a good many.

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Did you see any animals at any time?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: What kind?

Helaine Fry: Dogs and birds.

Prosecuting attorney: What sort of birds?
Prosecution: Probably a bird like a little canary.

Defense attorney: Was it yellow?

Helaine Fry: No.

Prosecuting attorney: White?

Helaine Fry: All white.

Prosecuting attorney: Any other kind of birds?

Helaine Fry: No.

Prosecuting attorney: Did the canary sing?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Whistle?

Helaine Fry: Whistle?

Prosecuting attorney: Did it whistle?
Helaine Fry:” I don’t know the difference.

Prosecuting attorney: What is the word? Sifflerl

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Did it do that?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Do you believe animals have got souls?

Helaine Fry: Yes.
Prosecution You do?

Helaine Fry: Yes, they may belong to a certain soul group.

Prosecuting attorney: Do you believe in Christian Science?

Helaine Fry: I do not know Christian

Prosecuting attorney: One thing is certain, you believe in Mrs. Duncan absolutely?

Helaine Fry: Yes,

Judge: How did you come to contact her?

Helaine Fry: I heard of Mrs. Duncan when I was at the Congress in Glasgow in 1937.

Prosecuting attorney: You engaged her to come to London, did you?

Helaine Fry: No, it was long afterwards. I met her many times besides at my place, before.

Prosecuting attorney: Do you live in Glasgow?

Helaine Fry: No.

Prosecuting attorney: You live in London now?

Helaine Fry: I live in London.

Prosecuting attorney: Were these seances held in London?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: At your house?

Helaine Fry: Except one in Glasgow.

Prosecuting attorney: In your house?

Helaine Fry: Some in my house, some elsewhere.

Prosecuting attorney: Other people’s houses?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Did you get Mrs. Duncan to come to London, then?

Helaine Fry: Not specially for me.

Prosecuting attorney: Was she doing a round of visiting?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: You engaged her?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Did you invite friends to come?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: And you charged the friends?

Helaine Fry: Not all; some of them, and some of them came as friends, and paid no fee whatsoever.

Prosecuting attorney: Have you a family alive?

Helaine Fry: 1 have three daughters alive and a son in spirit.

Prosecuting attorney: Is your husband alive?

Helaine Fry: Yes, my husband is alive.

Prosecuting attorney: When was this son of yours stillborn, or not born in the flesh? How long ago?

Helaine Fry: He would have been twenty- four now if he had lived.

Prosecuting attorney: When you say he was never born in the flesh, you mean he was stillborn or a miscarriage?

Helaine Fry: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: An early one or a late one?

Helaine Fry: Five months.

Prosecuting attorney: When you saw your son, the spirit materialization, was he being carried by anybody?

Helaine Fry: No, he was not.

Prosecuting attorney: What form did he take, a grown form?

Helaine Fry: He was like all the others, because he is grown-up now, except that they could not build him a face. That was the only difference, but he was my son, I know.

Prosecuting attorney: Because Albert said so?

Helaine Fry: I could feel it. I talked to him.

Prosecuting attorney: He was grown-up, you mean, to the extent to which a man of twenty would be grown?

Helaine Fry: Yes, absolutely. He is fully alive now.

Witness: Janet Dodds

300-302

Defense attorney: Do you remember the first sitting at a friend’s house?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense attorney: Where was that?

Janet Dodds: Mrs. Milne, Downhill Road. .

Defense attorney: At Dunfermline?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense attorney: What relation appeared to you?

Janet Dodds: My father.

Defense attorney: How near were you? Were you sitting near the curtain?

Janet Dodds: I went up close to the curtain. He asked me to come and see him. I went right up ” to the curtain and saw him.

Defense attorney: Did you see his features?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense attorney: Was there anything about his face that you identified him by?

Janet Dodds: More by his words, the words that he said.

Judge: When was this? Give me some sort of date. Was it last year or the year before?

Janet Dodds: No, that is six years ago.

Defense Attorney 2: What words did he use that particularly identified him to you?

Janet Dodds: He used my name, and he used the name that we always called him in the house.

Defense attorney: What was that?

Janet Dodds: “Foy”. That meant “father”.

Defense attorney: How do you spell that?

Janet Dodds: I could not tell you. It was just the children. We could not say “father.” It was only a childish one, and we just kept it up. “Foy.”

Judge: Whose house was this?

Janet Dodds: Mrs. Milne’s.

Defense Attorney 2: Did he remain talking to you very long?

Janet Dodds: No.

Defense attorney: How did he dematerialize?

Janet Dodds: He dropped down to the floor, disappeared.

Defense attorney: Didn’t come back to the curtain?

Janet Dodds: Just between the curtains, but I saw him drop.

Defense attorney: Did anyone else appear to you?

Janet Dodds: Well, my sister and my mother have appeared to me. My father mostly.

Defense attorney: Your mother materialized, did she?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense attorney: How near to your mother were you?

Janet Dodds: Close to her. She asked me to come and see her.

Judge: At the same sitting?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense Attorney 2: Did you remain sitting or stand up?

Janet Dodds: No, I went up to the curtain to see her.

Defense attorney: Did you go to the curtain each time to see your father, mother and sister?

Janet Dodds: No, that was not the same Sunday.

Defense attorney: Now about your mother. How did you recognize your mother’s voice?

Janet Dodds: I was a wee bit excited, but it was my mother. Before my mother died I stood by the fireside and she said, “If I pass away, if I come through, I shall sing a hymn or I shall say, ‘It is true’ “. And all my mother came and said was, “Jean, it is true”, and she dropped. Not a soul knew about that, no other body.

Judge: Was she a Spiritualist?

Janet Dodds: No, in fact we did not believe in it.

Defense attorney: You are now?

Janet Dodds: Well, you know, I love to go to them, and I love to hear what they have to say, if possible.

Defense attorney: You have an open mind still?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense Attorney 2: Do you remember ari incident between yourself and Albert, the guide?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Defense attorney: What happened?

Janet Dodds: I was sitting. It was the first time I had seen Albert so clearly, and I said, “Oh”. That is all I said. It could have been anybody who could have said it. He said, “Yes, Mrs. D. I am 6 ft. 2. Would you like to come and see me?” I said, “Yes”, and Albert stood there. I stood here, and Mrs. Duncan was stretched on a chair, which I noticed, for I was looking for Mrs. Duncan, and she was stretched on a chair.

Judge: How close were they?

Janet Dodds: Albert was here; I was here, and Mrs. Duncan was here. Albert said, “Mrs. Duncan, you get up and see whether Mrs. Dodds or you is the taller of the two”, and he passed his hand over our heads and said, “Mrs. Dodds has got it”.

Defense Attorney 2: Have you heard any languages at all at seances, any other language than English or a Scotch accent?

Janet Dodds: No.

Defense attorney: Any other identifications of people you knew very well you personally?

Janet Dodds: Well, I saw one come through, and he had a scar on his face, a person I knew, and I knew he was killed in an aeroplane.

Defense attorney: What was his name?

Janet Dodds: He was a South African; Gilbert, I think it was.

Defense attorney: How near did he come to you?

Janet Dodds: He did not come to me; he came to my sister-in-law, and I knew him. He pointed to his face and we saw the scar right down his face. I saw it.

Defense attorney: Did he say anything?

Janet Dodds: He said who he was. He said he was Gilbert.

Defense attorney: Did you recognize the voice?

Janet Dodds: I was not so friendly, but the girl said it was his voice.

Prosecuting attorney: Were you a little bit or a wee bit excited the whole time, Mrs. Dodds?

Janet Dodds: No, I was not excited.

Prosecuting attorney: You have got used to it now?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: Do you believe in ghosts, things you can see through?

Janet Dodds: No, I don’t believe in ghosts.

Prosecuting attorney: If anybody had told you they had seen a ghost and they could see through it, what would you say?

Janet Dodds: I have never happened to see a ghost.

Prosecuting attorney: What would you say if somebody told you they had seen one?

Judge: You would like to consider the matter?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: You would like notice of that question, like they do in Parliament?

Judge: Don’t bother her. (To Witness) Could you see through these manifestations? Were they transparent or a fake?

Janet Dodds: No, it was not transparent to my idea. It just seemed like something in a beautiful robe, pure white.

Prosecuting attorney: Did they all wear a robe?

Janet Dodds: Yes.

Prosecuting attorney: A white robe?

Janet Dodds: Yes, a white robe. I have seen them come in a black one.

Prosecuting attorney: What happened to the white robe just before they disappeared?

Janet Dodds: I don’t know, but I saw my father go down; and everything just went like that. I saw him go down, because I was standing at the curtain.

Judge: Did the white robe go with him?

Janet Dodds: Everything. I just said, “Are you going now?” He said, “Yes”, and down he went. Everything disappeared. Mrs. Duncan was in the chair, for I saw her.

Witness: Frank Spencer

302-304

Defense attorney: What materializations have appeared for you personally, that you personally know?

Frank Spencer: The first that materialized was my brother, who was killed on a motor-cycle. He materialized, came through and spoke to me. I asked him if he could come a little clearer out of the cabinet so that I could see his features more clearly. He came further out. I saw his face, the small moustache he wore. I asked him a question: “What was your Christian name?” He said, “Why, Merlin”. I said, “Well, how did it happen?” He was killed on the cycle at five in the morning. He said, “I was cycling towards the lane end, and the bike got into a pothole and I crashed. I picked myself up, and somebody said a little later, ‘It’s no use bothering with him; he is dead’ “.

Defense attorney: Was that correct?

Frank Spencer: Yes, that was correct.

Defense attorney: Are you quite sure it was your brother?

Frank Spencer: Definitely. I asked him the question.

Defense attorney: What about his voice?

Frank Spencer: Yes, the voice of my brother.

Defense attorney: The appearance?

Frank Spencer: He was 5 ft. 10. He was much taller than myself.

Defense attorney: How far from him were you?

Frank Spencer: About three feet.

Defense attorney: What light?

Frank Spencer: Fairly good red light.

Defense attorney: You have told us about your brother. Someone was announced as your daughter?

Frank Spencer: My brother said, “Vera is coming after me”.

Defense attorney: As far as you know, did Mrs. Duncan know you had a daughter called Vera?

Frank Spencer: I had never met Mrs. Duncan in my life before. This was the first seance I had been to. Vera came through just as she was, fourteen years of age. I got close and reached over, and she came closer and reached over and said, “This is Vera, Daddy”. My wife was with me as my child passed. She had said, “They are coming for me. They are bringing the flowers. Take me with you”. My wife asked the question, “Whom did you see when you were passing out of the body?” She said, “The first to meet me was little Primrose”. That was a little child who was killed three weeks before. They went to the same school.

Defense attorney: You are quite sure that it was your daughter?

Frank Spencer: Definitely.

Defense attorney: Was the voice the voice of your daughter?

Frank Spencer: The voice of my daughter.

Defense attorney: How many times in all have you seen your daughter?

Frank Spencer: Four times

Defense attorney: Have you ever been fortunate enough to touch her?

Frank Spencer: I have held her hand and kissed her lips.

Defense attorney: Is she a slim girl or stout?

Frank Spencer: Just nicely formed; she was just medium.

Defense attorney: Someone came through who you thought might be your father, didn’t you?

Frank Spencer: Definitely, yes.

Defense attorney: Did he come through?

Frank Spencer: My father had one leg. My father came through with one leg. He spoke to me just a few words. He said, “Wait a minute, lad”. He went back into the cabinet and came out and said, “See, I have two legs now”.

Defense attorney: You mean he had built up before?

Frank Spencer: He had built it perfectly.

Defense attorney: Did Mrs. Duncan know, as far as you know, that your father only had one leg?

Frank Spencer: Definitely not. Mrs. Duncan didn’t know me at all.

Judge: Was it on the first occasion?

Frank Spencer: I had three materializations on the first occasion.

Defense attorney: What was the voice like?

Frank Spencer: The voice was the voice of my father, and I could see his beard as perfect as I can see you.

Defense attorney: Was it a deep voice?

Frank Spencer: Fairly modulated, but he spoke with a Cheshire accent. He said, “How art thou, lad?”

Defense attorney: As they say in Cheshire, do they?

Frank Spencer: Yes.

Defense attorney: Could Mrs. Duncan have imitated that voice, as far as you know?

Frank Spencer: It was not Mrs. Duncan. She is broad Scotch, and it was a man’s voice.

Defense attorney: Could she have imitated a man’s voice?

Frank Spencer: I don’t think so.

Defense attorney: You know the Cheshire dialect?

Frank Spencer: Yes, he said, “Carry on. Don’t stop now; carry on”.

Defense attorney: Has your father been through more than once?

Frank Spencer: No, only once. My daughter has been through four times. Another brother came.

Judge: At this first seance?

Frank Spencer: No, another seance.

Defense attorney: Where was the first seance held?

Frank Spencer: In a solicitor’s house, a solicitor named Mr. Izard Eaton, of Blackpool.

Defense attorney: Just tell us about the other brother?

Frank Spencer: My other brother was badly wounded in the last War in the lower portion of the body. He operated on himself.

Defense attorney: We want to know if you recognized him?

Frank Spencer: Yes. He had tubes in his inside, and told me all about it.

Defense attorney: Could you check that up?

Frank Spencer: I checked that up, because he came back from the War. I had been with him since he came back from the War.

Defense attorney: As far as you know, did Mrs. Duncan know that?

Frank Spencer: Nothing whatever about my brother.

Defense attorney: Why do you say it was your brother?

Frank Spencer: Because he spoke to me of an incident that happened in our lives. He quoted an incident when he came on leave and we had a party at my eldest sister’s before he went back again. He said, “Do you remember me playing the old melodeon, and we had a good time?” He played the melodeon

Defense attorney: What about his appearance?

Frank Spencer: His appearance to me was just as it was when I saw him last.

Defense attorney: What was his voice?

Frank Spencer: The voice of my brother.

Defense attorney: What dialect does he speak in?

Frank Spencer: Cheshire.

Defense attorney: Any other relation?

Frank Spencer: My grandmother once came through. My grandmother came to me and touched me on the shoulder and said, “Hello, lad, isn’t it grand to come back like this?” I lived with my grand- mother for a long time. I definitely recognized her.

Defense attorney: What dialect did she speak?

Frank Spencer: Cheshire too.

Defense attorney: Anybody else you identified?

Frank Spencer: I identified a girl that was brought by Albert to come through that I did not know had passed out of the body. He said, “A friend of yours wants your aid”, I called to the friend to come forward and, as she came out of the cabinet, she said, “I am Lily”. I told Lily I could not see the features very clearly, and she came a little nearer. I said, “Lily Cunningham, I did not know you had passed”.

Defense attorney: Did you know anyone called Lily Cunningham?

Frank Spencer: Yes,

Defense attorney: As far as you know, does Mrs. Duncan even know Lily Cunningham?

Frank Spencer: Not at all.

Defense attorney: Why do you say it was Lily Cunningham?

Frank Spencer: Because I recognized the girl, because I lived in the same street as her. She had been in my home so many times with my daughters.

Defense attorney: How did you recognize her?

Frank Spencer: By her features, by her voice and by her mannerisms. She had a habit of touching her mouth.

Defense attorney: She touched her mouth?

Frank Spencer: Yes, she had had sleeping sickness. Yes, she touched her mouth.

Defense attorney: You have had more than the usual number of materializations, haven’t you? Are you very experienced?

Frank Spencer: Well, I have had evidence otherwise than through materializations.

Defense attorney: I follow. You seem to have had a good many.